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Hello, everyone, and welcome
to today's Propmodo webinar.

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My name is Franco. I
will be moderating this.

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As always, I'm the editor
and cofounder of Propmodo.

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And today, we're gonna be talking a
little bit about data and AI and how

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it's being used to manage
energy use in buildings.

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The topic that gets
brought up a lot,

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but I think it's more
complicated than most people

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make it out to be.

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I think not only are you
dealing with all of the

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building and property factors,

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but there's lots of
other variables that,

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have to be taken into
consider consideration.

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Right?

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We got changing energy
prices, energy mix, right,

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sustainability mandate,
changing climate,

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if you believe in that.

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Lots of, kind of trend
lines that are all,

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coming together to to make it
a little bit of a, you know,

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difficult proposition to really
understand how to lower energy

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and, you know, hopefully,
carbon carbon footprint.

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So I'm gonna be going over
some trends, you know,

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some specifics about
how to actually do it.

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As always, this is
a live webinar, and,

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we won't be saving any time
at the end for questions.

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In fact, we'd rather you all just throw
your questions out as as we're talking.

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So do you see we
have a chat here?

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We have a you know, you can
ask questions. Feel free.

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Jump in.

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If they're pertinent, I'll
bring it up to the panelists,

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and and we'll talk about
it right on the spot.

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So appreciate everybody here.

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I know I see a lot of
sophisticated people that have

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signed up for this.

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I know you guys all have, some
opinions and and some, questions,

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so we're we're looking forward
to building that as as they come.

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So,

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before we start, I would like to
introduce my distinguished panelists here.

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First, we have Cass McFadden.

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She's a Hlobal head of
Sustainability for Cortland.

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They're, as probably
most of you know,

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a large multifamily
owner and operator.

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Hi, Cass.

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Hi, everyone. Thanks
for having me.

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Thanks for coming on.
Next, we have Matt Houser.

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He's Director of Enterprise
Sales at Omnidian.

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They're a solar service
provider. Hi, Matt.

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Hey, Franco. Yeah.

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Looking forward to looking
forward to your, you know,

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insights about all of the the
renewable because, you know,

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that is another another fold
to this that makes it very,

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tricky to to
understand, you know,

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energy and and energy usage.

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And last but certainly not
least, we have Tony Liou.

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He's President of
Partner Energy.

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They're an international due
diligence and engineering firm.

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Hi, Tony.

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Hi. How are you?

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Doing great. Excited to
be here with everybody.

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I got some, great minds, and,
hopefully, we can, you know,

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hash out some of these
kind of difficult difficult scenarios.

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But before we do,

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I always like to start these
out just by talking some of the

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trends happening right now.

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I think this kind
of sets the stage,

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for everything we'll
likely talk about,

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later on in the webinar.

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I think probably foremost
on most people's minds is is

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what's happening with energy.

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I think, particularly now,

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it seems like sustainability is
kind of taking a back seat to

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profitability, at least for a
lot of, you know, occupiers,

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a lot of firms.

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Profitability is difficult
right now when you're looking

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at what are likely
changing energy prices.

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Right?

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So I'd like to maybe just talk,

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to all of you about kind of
what where you see the the

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energy mix going,
right, both, you know,

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where we are generating
energy in in the country, and,

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obviously, that
changes by utility.

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But, also, you know,

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just generally where where
prices are headed, you know,

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maybe, how prices are getting
calculated is changing

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through a lot of utilities.

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So just kind of interested to
hear what you kind of think is

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is happening as far as the
energy mix in that country.

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Tony, I'd love to start
with you on this one.

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Yeah. Sure.

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So, I mean,

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it's tough to talk about
energy, energy pricing,

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energy needs, well, without
talking a little bit about demand.

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You know, I think data centers,
AI, this is the topic here.

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AI is very data center,

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it's very high
demand data centers,

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and data centers are one of the
biggest drivers of our energy

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needs in this country,
really, in the world.

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So when we look at it, the
demand from data centers,

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electric vehicles,
even electrification,

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these things are all gonna
drive energy prices up.

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You know, in my world where we looked
at kind of more engineering due

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diligence in the CRE space,

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one of the biggest things
that a lot of our clients are

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looking at and concerned about is
the change of regulatory environment.

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Right?

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There are a lot of
jurisdictions that are

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requiring energy
benchmarking, energy audits,

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and then there's the kind of
the the the the tougher one,

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which is building
performance standards.

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So there are jurisdictions.

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So if you own real estate
in New York or Maryland or

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Denver, they're rego they
regulate the amount of carbon,

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amount energy buildings can use,

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and this is certainly gonna
drive up continue to drive up

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some of the cost
throughout that.

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Absolutely.

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Matt, I'd love to kinda have
you expand on that, you know,

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particularly when it comes
to to on-site generation.

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Right?

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Like, what what are your clients
seeing as far as the the the

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trend of energy prices and
kind of how that fits into how

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they're able to make,
renewables pencil.

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Yeah.

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The, the calculus has changed
quite a bit, quite frankly,

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over the last couple months.

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Solar just got about thirty
percent more expensive

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effectively for projects that
have not be begun development

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due to the passage of the
One Big Beautiful Bill.

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But in addition, as everybody
is seeing in the news,

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it feels like on a rolling,
like, monthly basis,

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utility rates are going up.

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Ten, twelve, thirteen
percent in lots of regions.

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And so I think right now,

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there's a little it's
it's in a weird spot.

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People are trying to
recalibrate, figure out, okay.

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Where where does this where does
this best pencil in for my portfolio?

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However,

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the demand is
continuing to rise.

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Right?

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Usage at particular
buildings, especially with

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electrification, are continuing
to drive these things.

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ESG mandates are still
although are a little

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bit full shaky right now
for some folks, I think,

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generally speaking, people
are still very strong.

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And so there's just a
slight recalculus of things,

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but demand is still
strong for solar.

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So we're still seeing
continued development of of

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on-site solar plus storage
where it makes sense.

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It's just a little
bit different now.

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So there's just a right now,

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it's just a a period
of of recalibration.

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Yeah. Yeah.

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And it's kind of going the opposite
way, I think, people thought.

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Right? And drill, baby, drill,
going back to fossil fuels.

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I think people kind of
assumed that might drive down

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energy prices and
certainly has not,

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and I haven't seen any
evidence that it will, right,

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in in the near future here.

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Cass, I'd love to hear
from you on this end.

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I know that, you know,

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you guys are know
a lot about these,

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these mandates,

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so I I'd maybe love to
hear from you about that.

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Right?

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How are both energy prices and
these kind of city mandates,

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dictating the way you guys are
thinking about your energy usage?

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Yeah.

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Sort of new things
that are added.

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I mean, there are EV structures.

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There are data centers.

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From a multifamily perspective,
you know, we're thinking about,

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amenity spaces.

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You know, if there's a new fitness
center and and folks want sort of that

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Peloton bike, okay, we have
to plug all of those in,

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and there might be, other
things that, you know,

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residents are interested in adding
to the individual units over time.

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If you think about, you know,

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how many chargers you have
now and how many devices are

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connected to that.

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So, that list continues to grow,

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and so we have to think about
it from that perspective in

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addition to the
common area spaces.

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So these are our, you know,
amenity spaces that residents,

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go in, utilize for
their enjoyment.

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We try to control those
expenses over time,

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but we might have some
continued exposure in areas

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where, we may not have total
forecasting or price control or

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maybe we're under a contract that
still has a high price, etcetera.

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So that's how we
kind of think about,

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how energy pricing and demand really
hits the the different assets.

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And then I think
on the other side,

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when you talk about the markets
and the regulatory inputs that

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we often have to
contend with, I mean,

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most of them that are currently
in place really try to drive us

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to energy efficiency.

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But in the middle, we have
to probably execute a new

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project or a new, you know,

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sort of technical or
infrastructure component that

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is going to have a
cost consideration,

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and then we have
to do, you know,

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some math behind that return.

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There might be an upfront
cost, but long term,

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we might be gaining the the
energy efficiency or the

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contract control that we need.

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So, well, there are a lot of

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factors, again,
impacting energy pricing.

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I think for us,

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it's really thinking through
gaining efficiencies.

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Ultimately, you know,

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everyone's in a a race towards
zero whether they think it or

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not when it comes to
efficiency, but while also,

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again, in the multifamily space,

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thinking through how do you
not sort of put a damper on the

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resident experience.

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They're going to wanna add things,
like I said, to their units.

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They we're in a different
space in multifamily now where

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there's a different demand
around amenity spaces.

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I mean, I'm sure if you
think back to your own first

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apartment experiences, all
the bells and whistles of the

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added, you know, amenity
components and and the new

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services, it it's just very
it's very different now.

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So that ends up hiking
demand at each asset,

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and we now have to factor in,

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how are we going to forecast
and control that component.

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Yeah.

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I'm interested to hear from you
about that forecasting. Right?

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Because, you know, how
far ahead do you look?

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And I'm thinking particularly
about EVs here. Right?

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I think, you know, when
they first came out,

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we saw that everybody
buying them up.

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The you know, they were growing
in their percentage of sales.

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I think, you know, oh, one day,

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are we gonna have to have every single
parking spot have an EV charger?

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Well, that is a
significant pull, right,

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for a property is you need new,
you know, direct power lines,

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a lot more amperage.

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Right?

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So, you know, how
far do you look at,

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and and how much do you think
that demand for EV is really

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gonna change, in the,
let's say, next ten years?

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Yeah. I know.

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If I was answering this maybe
a few months ago or, like,

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a year ago, I'd have
a different response.

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You know?

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Things have clearly changed in terms
of electric vehicle incentives.

245
00:10:50,635 --> 00:10:54,070
But, again, thinking about
multifamily and the asset,

246
00:10:54,070 --> 00:10:57,030
I will say there is
a bit of a, you know,

247
00:10:57,030 --> 00:10:59,510
chicken and the egg dilemma
that a lot of multifamily

248
00:10:59,510 --> 00:11:02,230
operators kind of deal
with at the outset.

249
00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:04,150
You know? What is the demand?

250
00:11:04,150 --> 00:11:06,070
How many spaces
should you plan for?

251
00:11:06,070 --> 00:11:07,910
Is it two chargers,
six chargers?

252
00:11:07,910 --> 00:11:09,870
Is it, you know, a whole floor?

253
00:11:10,515 --> 00:11:13,395
And there are specific market
demands around the amount of

254
00:11:13,395 --> 00:11:17,075
parking that you have to supply
maybe for your residents or

255
00:11:17,075 --> 00:11:18,035
within a given area.

256
00:11:18,035 --> 00:11:20,675
But once you get past
checking those boxes,

257
00:11:20,675 --> 00:11:24,340
it's really thinking through
what is the owner's appetite,

258
00:11:24,340 --> 00:11:27,380
especially given that that one
asset might not be their only

259
00:11:27,380 --> 00:11:30,260
EV infrastructure
investment. Right?

260
00:11:30,260 --> 00:11:34,300
It might be thinking through two
hundred and sixteen communities.

261
00:11:34,995 --> 00:11:36,435
Some might wanna, you know,

262
00:11:36,435 --> 00:11:40,355
sort of pilot six and then
see if residents really like,

263
00:11:40,355 --> 00:11:42,355
you know, maybe the
level one or level two.

264
00:11:42,355 --> 00:11:44,995
I think level one's probably
a little out of level two

265
00:11:44,995 --> 00:11:46,355
charters that
you've put in place.

266
00:11:46,355 --> 00:11:49,810
And if there's growing demand
and you've got a good financial

267
00:11:49,810 --> 00:11:53,650
system around it where maybe
residents are, you know,

268
00:11:53,650 --> 00:11:57,490
sort of paying for their usage, there
might be an amenity fee, etcetera.

269
00:11:57,490 --> 00:11:59,970
Just a good setup so that
you can control the cost,

270
00:11:59,970 --> 00:12:03,065
but the residents are also
happy with the experience and

271
00:12:03,065 --> 00:12:06,585
the product, then you might
look to scale from there.

272
00:12:06,585 --> 00:12:09,145
So I think it's going
to vary, you know,

273
00:12:09,145 --> 00:12:12,625
based on the owners and
operators, but, ultimately,

274
00:12:12,745 --> 00:12:15,450
at least my personal
perspective is that you have to

275
00:12:15,450 --> 00:12:18,970
get to a pilot phase to
understand the true demand,

276
00:12:18,970 --> 00:12:20,410
saying that you have, you know,

277
00:12:20,410 --> 00:12:22,890
four hundred units and
multiplying that out across

278
00:12:22,890 --> 00:12:26,730
residents and trying to dial in
how many might have EVs or how

279
00:12:26,730 --> 00:12:27,930
many might be interested.

280
00:12:27,930 --> 00:12:29,770
It's a little tough to do.

281
00:12:29,770 --> 00:12:32,625
And I've heard percentages
thrown out, you know,

282
00:12:32,625 --> 00:12:35,705
plan for ten percent
of your your space.

283
00:12:35,905 --> 00:12:39,505
And then there are
jurisdictions where, you know,

284
00:12:39,505 --> 00:12:41,985
the regulatory bodies are
working closely with the

285
00:12:41,985 --> 00:12:45,665
utilities to maybe plan for
all spaces being EV capable.

286
00:12:45,665 --> 00:12:48,780
So it'll vary market by market,
but I think as an owner,

287
00:12:48,780 --> 00:12:51,740
you really have to start to
pilot so you can see what your

288
00:12:51,740 --> 00:12:53,500
individualized demand would be.

289
00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:54,540
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

290
00:12:54,540 --> 00:12:56,220
And market to market,
I mean, California,

291
00:12:56,220 --> 00:12:58,300
we see a lot of them
and, you know, obviously,

292
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,140
other places a lot less.

293
00:13:00,140 --> 00:13:04,355
Tony, what do you guys hear from
your clients about EV charging?

294
00:13:04,355 --> 00:13:07,075
Right? That's a
big new power draw.

295
00:13:07,075 --> 00:13:07,955
I think, you know,

296
00:13:07,955 --> 00:13:10,595
everybody wants to put
as much as they can in,

297
00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:12,675
but I think there's a lot
of limitations, right,

298
00:13:12,675 --> 00:13:15,675
about how much, you know,
you can actually provide?

299
00:13:15,795 --> 00:13:16,355
Sure.

300
00:13:16,355 --> 00:13:20,460
You know, I I think when
you're selecting sites,

301
00:13:20,460 --> 00:13:22,620
I think the the the dynamics
have changed. Right?

302
00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:26,060
It's like electrical capacity is
just worth its weight in gold.

303
00:13:26,060 --> 00:13:27,740
Right? You don't have
to have a nice building.

304
00:13:27,740 --> 00:13:29,660
It doesn't even need to be
particularly clean from a

305
00:13:29,660 --> 00:13:30,780
environmental perspective,

306
00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:33,815
but you're next to the grid and you
have a lot of power going to it,

307
00:13:33,815 --> 00:13:36,455
it it definitely there's a
lot of opportunities for that

308
00:13:36,455 --> 00:13:37,975
particular site.

309
00:13:37,975 --> 00:13:41,895
But the piggyback off that
answer from Cass is I think we

310
00:13:41,895 --> 00:13:43,415
gotta look at the
technology too.

311
00:13:43,415 --> 00:13:46,335
I think technology
has evolved so that

312
00:13:47,710 --> 00:13:50,910
the amount of time it takes to
charge some of these EVs are

313
00:13:50,910 --> 00:13:54,590
are getting comparable to how much
time you spend at the gas station.

314
00:13:54,590 --> 00:13:58,030
Right? If you look at it, you
know, I mean, I have a an EV.

315
00:13:58,030 --> 00:14:00,045
If I go to a high charge
high speed charger,

316
00:14:00,045 --> 00:14:03,325
it takes me about thirty minutes
to get to eighty percent.

317
00:14:03,325 --> 00:14:05,085
But if you look at some
of the new technology,

318
00:14:05,085 --> 00:14:07,405
that time is significantly
dropping down to ten,

319
00:14:07,405 --> 00:14:09,085
twenty minutes.

320
00:14:09,085 --> 00:14:09,325
Right?

321
00:14:09,325 --> 00:14:11,245
If you're comparable
to a gas station,

322
00:14:11,245 --> 00:14:12,205
you you all of a sudden,

323
00:14:12,205 --> 00:14:14,610
you don't have to
build EV infrastructure everywhere.

324
00:14:14,610 --> 00:14:17,490
You can just have centralized
EV charging stations,

325
00:14:17,490 --> 00:14:19,170
and I think that
works pretty well.

326
00:14:19,170 --> 00:14:22,370
So I think technology is gonna
come into play certainly from

327
00:14:22,370 --> 00:14:23,330
that perspective.

328
00:14:23,330 --> 00:14:25,490
But, otherwise, I think
it's it's an amenity. Right?

329
00:14:25,490 --> 00:14:27,650
It's an amenity folks
wanna build off.

330
00:14:27,650 --> 00:14:29,250
I think, like, you
everyone's saying,

331
00:14:29,250 --> 00:14:31,075
I think dynamics have changed.

332
00:14:31,075 --> 00:14:34,195
But I think in terms of
building owners just wanting to

333
00:14:34,195 --> 00:14:36,995
understand, I'd at
least need a few.

334
00:14:36,995 --> 00:14:37,395
Right?

335
00:14:37,395 --> 00:14:40,115
It's it's may not be,
you know, ten, twenty,

336
00:14:40,115 --> 00:14:41,955
thirty percent of
it, but I need a few.

337
00:14:41,955 --> 00:14:44,100
So, you know, we we do find

338
00:14:44,100 --> 00:14:46,180
ourselves often is
often seeing, yeah,

339
00:14:46,180 --> 00:14:48,580
how much electrical
pass is that building?

340
00:14:48,580 --> 00:14:51,300
How much does it cost
to drag, you know,

341
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,020
a two forty volt wire from
the from the main transformer down

342
00:14:54,020 --> 00:14:54,900
to the parking lot?

343
00:14:54,900 --> 00:14:55,220
Right?

344
00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:58,345
So these cost considerations
are being considered during due

345
00:14:58,345 --> 00:15:00,305
diligence as well as us.

346
00:15:01,625 --> 00:15:05,305
Matt, I'm I wanna hear from
you about, you know, EVs, but,

347
00:15:05,305 --> 00:15:06,905
you know, with your
specialization,

348
00:15:06,905 --> 00:15:10,345
I I think what's interesting
to me is how EVs represent a

349
00:15:10,345 --> 00:15:13,140
little bit of a charging pattern,
right, that or, you know,

350
00:15:13,140 --> 00:15:16,340
a different kind of load
pattern that might not jive

351
00:15:16,340 --> 00:15:20,580
perfectly with solar, yet
they also do store energy.

352
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:20,820
Right?

353
00:15:20,820 --> 00:15:22,820
We can, you know,

354
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:25,445
kind of charge them
at certain times

355
00:15:25,445 --> 00:15:27,845
when when the grid
isn't as expensive.

356
00:15:27,845 --> 00:15:31,605
So how do you think that kind
of solar on-site generation

357
00:15:31,605 --> 00:15:34,845
and EVs kind of, play
together the best?

358
00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:40,480
You know, it's it really depends
on a property by property level.

359
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,920
We're seeing a lot of
deployment of PV plus battery

360
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:45,680
plus EV charging.

361
00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:47,440
Some of it's mandate driven.

362
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:48,800
Some of it is, you know,

363
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,885
really just about
amenities per site.

364
00:15:53,165 --> 00:15:55,965
You know, I think what it comes
down to is ensuring you have enough

365
00:15:55,965 --> 00:15:57,565
generation, right, on-site.

366
00:15:57,565 --> 00:16:00,765
If it's kinda directly powering
those chargers either directly

367
00:16:00,765 --> 00:16:03,085
from the PV plus battery,

368
00:16:03,085 --> 00:16:05,285
ensuring that's
set up correctly.

369
00:16:05,330 --> 00:16:06,370
But I think, you know,

370
00:16:06,370 --> 00:16:09,770
another thing that we're kinda
learning through the process is,

371
00:16:10,210 --> 00:16:11,810
you know, up to I
think it's, like,

372
00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:15,570
thirty percent of EV
chargers are down at

373
00:16:15,570 --> 00:16:17,090
any given time.

374
00:16:17,090 --> 00:16:18,490
It's a lot.

375
00:16:19,395 --> 00:16:21,395
And for those who drive EVs,

376
00:16:21,395 --> 00:16:24,595
you ever pulled up to an e a
charger and it not and it was

377
00:16:24,595 --> 00:16:27,235
not operable, it's frustrating.

378
00:16:27,235 --> 00:16:31,235
I mean, if thirty percent of gas
pumps were out were out of service at

379
00:16:31,235 --> 00:16:34,210
any given time, there'd
be riots in the streets.

380
00:16:34,210 --> 00:16:35,650
Yeah. Very frustrating.

381
00:16:35,650 --> 00:16:38,610
And so, I think folks are
trying to learn that and

382
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:39,490
understand, like, hey.

383
00:16:39,490 --> 00:16:43,930
Like, if you're offering this as
an amenity and it does not work,

384
00:16:44,370 --> 00:16:47,170
that can be you you could be
in a worse position than even

385
00:16:47,170 --> 00:16:49,005
before offering it because
because you're kinda dangling

386
00:16:49,005 --> 00:16:49,725
in front of them,

387
00:16:49,725 --> 00:16:51,885
and it's it it there's the
frustration of trying to make

388
00:16:51,885 --> 00:16:52,765
it work and whatnot.

389
00:16:52,765 --> 00:16:54,525
And so, you know,
we're you know,

390
00:16:54,525 --> 00:16:57,725
folks are starting to learn
about understanding, you know,

391
00:16:57,725 --> 00:17:00,120
how how how do we
service these things?

392
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,040
You know, how how do
we keep them online?

393
00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,440
Because, ultimately, what
good is an EV charger?

394
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,480
What what good is an amenity
if it's not, you know,

395
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,040
providing that for
for for the customer?

396
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:11,280
So,

397
00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,520
yeah, that's kind of a little bit about
what we're seeing within the space.

398
00:17:15,915 --> 00:17:17,595
What about do you think it,

399
00:17:17,595 --> 00:17:22,155
increases the desire
for solar and on-site?

400
00:17:22,155 --> 00:17:24,395
I mean, like, most
people charge at night.

401
00:17:24,395 --> 00:17:26,475
Solar is generating
during the day. Right?

402
00:17:26,475 --> 00:17:29,315
How did how do those play
together the best, do you think?

403
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:30,470
Oh, of course.

404
00:17:30,470 --> 00:17:33,670
I mean, you're I mean, the
the low profile for a charger,

405
00:17:33,670 --> 00:17:36,910
depending on its structure,
can be quite substantial.

406
00:17:37,510 --> 00:17:40,550
And, you know, it's an
you know, it it for folks,

407
00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:43,415
sometimes we have that has to be
paired with solar plus storage.

408
00:17:43,415 --> 00:17:46,375
And so, you know,
with with, you know,

409
00:17:46,375 --> 00:17:47,735
with the storage component,

410
00:17:47,735 --> 00:17:51,095
that can be better paired for
amenities charging at night and

411
00:17:51,095 --> 00:17:52,935
through the early morning.

412
00:17:52,935 --> 00:17:54,455
We're seeing a lot
of deployments,

413
00:17:54,455 --> 00:17:59,250
especially around carports, around
with with solar plus

414
00:17:59,250 --> 00:18:03,410
EV charging too, which is a
great amenity for corporates or

415
00:18:03,410 --> 00:18:06,530
any sort of business that's
You know, having, you know,

416
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:08,570
customers during the daytime.

417
00:18:09,095 --> 00:18:12,055
And so, yeah, you know, it just
kinda depends on the profile.

418
00:18:12,055 --> 00:18:14,295
But what what we'd
say is that, you know,

419
00:18:14,295 --> 00:18:17,335
if there's a solar
plus storage component,

420
00:18:17,335 --> 00:18:19,815
that can be pretty
comprehensive in how you want

421
00:18:19,815 --> 00:18:22,135
to deliver EV charging.

422
00:18:22,135 --> 00:18:23,935
It gives a lot more resiliency.

423
00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:25,340
Yeah. Absolutely.

424
00:18:25,340 --> 00:18:28,620
Before we get into the the
data part of this conversation,

425
00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:31,180
I do wanna touch on one other
piece, which is financing.

426
00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:31,500
Right?

427
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,780
You'd kinda talk, Matt, about,
you know, prices are going up.

428
00:18:34,780 --> 00:18:35,020
Right?

429
00:18:35,020 --> 00:18:39,045
There's less subsidies
kind of helping you, but,

430
00:18:39,045 --> 00:18:40,965
you know, a lot of financing
options still exist.

431
00:18:40,965 --> 00:18:42,485
I'm thinking
particularly about CPACE.

432
00:18:42,485 --> 00:18:42,805
Right?

433
00:18:42,805 --> 00:18:45,845
This is a state by
state run program,

434
00:18:45,845 --> 00:18:50,685
so the federal government has not
been able to dismantle it yet.

435
00:18:50,965 --> 00:18:54,930
You know, do you do you think
that people are still able to make

436
00:18:54,930 --> 00:18:59,650
large investments in,
let's say, sustainability,

437
00:18:59,650 --> 00:19:03,410
you know, generation or
even kind of, you know,

438
00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:05,890
power reduction improvements?

439
00:19:05,890 --> 00:19:07,610
It will make make those work?

440
00:19:07,775 --> 00:19:09,735
Oh, absolutely.

441
00:19:10,015 --> 00:19:10,255
Yeah.

442
00:19:10,255 --> 00:19:13,935
We do see CPACE financing as
as something that is growing, but,

443
00:19:13,935 --> 00:19:16,655
you know, PPA structure
still remain very strong.

444
00:19:16,655 --> 00:19:20,815
And so I think for
portfolio owners of of commercial real

445
00:19:20,815 --> 00:19:23,255
estate who are looking to deploy

446
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,080
solar, there are lots of
financing entities that that

447
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:31,320
are willing to offer those
offer PPA structures,

448
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,000
you know, with, you
know, portfolio tranches.

449
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,045
And so even for, you know,
smaller systems, right,

450
00:19:39,045 --> 00:19:40,885
if if especially for, you know,

451
00:19:40,885 --> 00:19:43,605
multifamily and other
entities where and usually,

452
00:19:43,605 --> 00:19:46,085
the the the ability to to
deploy solar can be on kind of

453
00:19:46,085 --> 00:19:48,165
a smaller scale, you know,

454
00:19:48,165 --> 00:19:51,240
looking across a
nationwide footprint, yeah,

455
00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:54,320
there's absolutely financing
structures that are available.

456
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:55,720
I'll just add, you know,

457
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:59,800
the the irony of rising energy
costs is the investment in

458
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:01,960
energy efficiency
renewables gets better.

459
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:02,280
Right?

460
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:03,200
It's

461
00:20:03,755 --> 00:20:05,195
it's changing constantly.

462
00:20:05,195 --> 00:20:05,435
Right?

463
00:20:05,435 --> 00:20:07,995
So certainly the federal
rebates going away have a big

464
00:20:07,995 --> 00:20:10,715
impact, but you gotta
look at local rebates,

465
00:20:10,715 --> 00:20:12,555
and then you gotta look
at utility rebates.

466
00:20:12,555 --> 00:20:16,920
But you also need to understand
what the cost of energy is, right,

467
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,720
what the cost of electricity
is in in your local markets at

468
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:20,920
that particular point in time.

469
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,880
So, you know, as
energy prices go

470
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,720
high, it's it's it's higher.

471
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,720
It certainly makes capital
investment in efficiency and

472
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:31,280
renewables better.

473
00:20:32,325 --> 00:20:33,205
Cass, how about you guys?

474
00:20:33,205 --> 00:20:35,845
I mean, I I think what's so
interesting to me is that,

475
00:20:35,845 --> 00:20:37,125
you know, it's hard.

476
00:20:37,125 --> 00:20:38,325
Right? You're hitting
a moving target.

477
00:20:38,325 --> 00:20:41,285
You don't really know what your
energy expenses are gonna be.

478
00:20:41,285 --> 00:20:43,685
Whereas if you do invest
in something like on-site

479
00:20:43,685 --> 00:20:46,320
renewables, solar,
you you kind of do.

480
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,520
Right? You you kinda take an
unknown and and create a known.

481
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:51,880
I mean, how are you
guys thinking about,

482
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,840
you know, that
kind of investment,

483
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,840
and and how are you able
to to maybe finance them?

484
00:20:57,445 --> 00:20:57,845
Yeah.

485
00:20:57,845 --> 00:21:00,725
I think, obviously,
starting with just

486
00:21:00,725 --> 00:21:05,125
raw data, we understand energy
consumption year over year,

487
00:21:05,125 --> 00:21:08,005
and then we have a
pretty good pulse on,

488
00:21:08,005 --> 00:21:10,725
understanding in the regulatory
environment when rates are

489
00:21:10,725 --> 00:21:12,045
going to graduate.

490
00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:14,100
And there can be
spikes, but, you know,

491
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:17,060
we have a renewable energy
procurement strategy where we

492
00:21:17,060 --> 00:21:19,700
really try to control
the cost where we can,

493
00:21:19,700 --> 00:21:23,460
and where we know we're financially
responsible as an owner.

494
00:21:23,460 --> 00:21:25,980
I think beyond that,
as we think through

495
00:21:26,965 --> 00:21:29,285
different opportunities
to model, you know,

496
00:21:29,285 --> 00:21:31,325
the financial options,

497
00:21:31,685 --> 00:21:34,805
one thing that's trending is kind
of the combination of, you know,

498
00:21:34,805 --> 00:21:38,725
public and private funding so you can
reduce risk and attract more capital.

499
00:21:38,725 --> 00:21:39,045
Right?

500
00:21:39,045 --> 00:21:43,140
So we look at that structure
thinking through energy as a service.

501
00:21:43,140 --> 00:21:45,380
You know, there are
different vendors who,

502
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:46,420
talk through options.

503
00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:49,540
It could be like a solar
and storage combination,

504
00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:50,820
that we've kinda touched on.

505
00:21:50,820 --> 00:21:53,940
So without potentially owning
the equipment, you could,

506
00:21:53,940 --> 00:21:56,495
you know, reduce
upfront costs, etcetera.

507
00:21:56,495 --> 00:21:56,895
Right?

508
00:21:56,895 --> 00:21:59,575
And that's probably
more favorable,

509
00:21:59,615 --> 00:22:01,295
sometimes for, let's say,

510
00:22:01,295 --> 00:22:04,015
asset managers that
are very nervous about,

511
00:22:04,015 --> 00:22:06,895
infrastructure upgrades
because it might, you know,

512
00:22:06,895 --> 00:22:10,200
impact the structure in a way
that a seller might not find

513
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,520
attractive, for example.

514
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:14,040
So that model is still there.

515
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,520
I think, you know, CPACE
or generally, like,

516
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:18,040
PACE kind of financing.

517
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,120
You

518
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,960
know, I I still think
there's a there's a cap.

519
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,080
People have to remember that,

520
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:27,015
like a cap on loans for renewables
and resiliency upgrades.

521
00:22:27,015 --> 00:22:29,175
And, through that, I mean,

522
00:22:29,175 --> 00:22:31,255
you have to decide in
your business structure.

523
00:22:31,255 --> 00:22:33,495
So this these are
things we think through.

524
00:22:33,495 --> 00:22:37,095
You know, do we really want to
have things prepaid through tax

525
00:22:37,095 --> 00:22:39,935
assessments even though
there are favorable terms?

526
00:22:40,250 --> 00:22:42,330
Are there other
components of, you know,

527
00:22:42,330 --> 00:22:44,090
a contractual
agreement that, again,

528
00:22:44,090 --> 00:22:47,370
aren't favorable to maybe
our old periods and what our

529
00:22:47,370 --> 00:22:48,410
investors might want?

530
00:22:48,410 --> 00:22:51,890
So those things can
sometimes be limitations.

531
00:22:52,775 --> 00:22:55,495
But I know Matt also mentioned,
like, existing you know,

532
00:22:55,495 --> 00:23:00,215
the existing PPA structure or even
virtual power purchase agreements.

533
00:23:00,215 --> 00:23:03,255
I think that's ultimately
a financial transaction.

534
00:23:03,255 --> 00:23:05,975
But folks in this environment
where especially if you haven't

535
00:23:05,975 --> 00:23:09,500
started a solar project or you
haven't procured equipment or

536
00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:12,860
started, you know, any work
that might qualify for,

537
00:23:12,860 --> 00:23:16,100
these sort of umbrella
periods that are covered.

538
00:23:16,940 --> 00:23:20,380
Now I think practitioners think
through shifting strategy or

539
00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:21,420
shifting timelines.

540
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:22,985
We don't know when, you know,

541
00:23:22,985 --> 00:23:26,545
the incentives might
be reinstated or extended.

542
00:23:26,665 --> 00:23:29,225
And so, again, I think that
some of those financing

543
00:23:29,225 --> 00:23:32,105
options, especially the
combining public and private

544
00:23:32,105 --> 00:23:35,705
funding, if a firm
can afford that,

545
00:23:35,705 --> 00:23:39,980
might become more viable if
even for a limited period.

546
00:23:40,660 --> 00:23:41,980
Okay.

547
00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:44,500
So let's get into some
of this data. Right?

548
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:48,500
I think everybody, is curious
to understand how. You know?

549
00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:50,980
It sounds great. Like,
let's lower your energy.

550
00:23:50,980 --> 00:23:53,540
Let's lower your, you
know, carbon footprint,

551
00:23:53,540 --> 00:23:55,435
but it's not always that easy.

552
00:23:55,435 --> 00:23:58,715
So let's talk about first
kind of getting the data.

553
00:23:58,715 --> 00:24:01,755
You know, what kind of
data do you think that,

554
00:24:01,755 --> 00:24:03,755
is the most valuable for this,

555
00:24:03,755 --> 00:24:05,435
and how granular
does it have to be?

556
00:24:05,435 --> 00:24:09,130
I know that utilities often
they report, right, monthly.

557
00:24:09,130 --> 00:24:09,450
Right?

558
00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:11,530
They don't give you, I'm sure,

559
00:24:11,530 --> 00:24:14,570
the kind of the kind of granularity
to your needs that you need.

560
00:24:14,570 --> 00:24:16,570
So, Cass, I wanna stick
with you on this one,

561
00:24:16,570 --> 00:24:18,290
and then I'll I'll
go to the rest.

562
00:24:18,505 --> 00:24:18,905
Yeah.

563
00:24:18,905 --> 00:24:21,585
For you know, on our end,

564
00:24:21,945 --> 00:24:26,185
I feel feel pretty spoiled now in
that everything is pretty streamlined.

565
00:24:26,185 --> 00:24:26,505
You know?

566
00:24:26,505 --> 00:24:29,305
We have an external
vendor that we work with,

567
00:24:29,305 --> 00:24:31,945
who helps us sort through
the bills, capture, you know,

568
00:24:31,945 --> 00:24:35,590
electricity at the the
kilowatt hour metric.

569
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:38,990
We understand what
the rate is per kWh.

570
00:24:39,190 --> 00:24:41,430
Same thing for our gas metric,

571
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:45,510
oil if we have it for any place
for for generators, etcetera.

572
00:24:45,510 --> 00:24:48,915
We also have this for many other
things, water, waste, etcetera.

573
00:24:48,915 --> 00:24:52,435
So, we're capturing it
at that granular level.

574
00:24:52,435 --> 00:24:53,755
I think,

575
00:24:54,275 --> 00:24:56,355
how much of it you need,

576
00:24:56,355 --> 00:24:59,715
it really depends on your team
and what they can withstand

577
00:24:59,715 --> 00:25:02,115
when it comes to,
you know, analysis.

578
00:25:02,115 --> 00:25:06,060
So if you have a perfected
integrated sort of AI system

579
00:25:06,060 --> 00:25:09,980
that can spit out, you
know, interval data or even, like,

580
00:25:09,980 --> 00:25:12,140
a weekly snapshot,
etcetera, you think, okay.

581
00:25:12,140 --> 00:25:15,660
Well, your operational teams can
kinda see where there might be

582
00:25:15,660 --> 00:25:17,260
spikes, where there are drops,

583
00:25:17,260 --> 00:25:20,485
and and physically at the
asset level react to that.

584
00:25:20,485 --> 00:25:22,725
But we do have a centralized,

585
00:25:22,725 --> 00:25:25,445
utilities team that usually
looks at this on a monthly

586
00:25:25,445 --> 00:25:28,565
basis, accounting for
any variances, etcetera.

587
00:25:28,565 --> 00:25:31,000
And then as we combine
that with our, you know,

588
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:32,680
internal sustainability
function,

589
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,880
we're really looking for
what really stands out.

590
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,400
If in a market, there is an
asset that maybe is no bigger

591
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,840
or smaller than another one,

592
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,320
but we're seeing very
high usage somewhere,

593
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,525
it could be related to common
area EVs, whatever it is.

594
00:25:47,805 --> 00:25:49,405
That is what we want to tackle.

595
00:25:49,405 --> 00:25:51,645
Because like I said, there's
a bigger sort of, like,

596
00:25:51,645 --> 00:25:56,045
road to zero, but, we also
think of NOI or just, like,

597
00:25:56,045 --> 00:25:58,685
the financial
performance at the asset.

598
00:25:58,685 --> 00:26:01,500
And it's not something that if
we can tackle it and make it

599
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:02,860
more efficient or
bring it to zero,

600
00:26:02,860 --> 00:26:05,340
it's not something we wanna
keep spending money on in terms

601
00:26:05,340 --> 00:26:07,980
of, like, audits and
reassessing this every year.

602
00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:09,340
It's like we've assessed it.

603
00:26:09,340 --> 00:26:12,620
We know the historical
performance. Let's get to it.

604
00:26:12,620 --> 00:26:15,060
And one other thing
I would add is

605
00:26:15,435 --> 00:26:16,955
this is a little broader,

606
00:26:16,955 --> 00:26:19,995
but it's sort of like
your maintenance metrics.

607
00:26:19,995 --> 00:26:20,315
You know?

608
00:26:20,315 --> 00:26:22,115
You want to know,

609
00:26:22,555 --> 00:26:25,035
it's not the same as sort
of like a kilowatt hour or

610
00:26:25,035 --> 00:26:28,715
whatever it is or a therm, but,
just understanding, you know,

611
00:26:28,715 --> 00:26:30,755
how often you're
going to have to

612
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,680
respond to something, you know,

613
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,760
that's part of your
infrastructure is important

614
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:37,880
because that just becomes
part of your cost management.

615
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,400
Yeah. Absolutely.

616
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,400
Tony, when you guys work
with clients, you know,

617
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,080
what do you often, recommend
as far as, you know,

618
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,435
getting a little bit more sophisticated
about the data they collect?

619
00:26:48,475 --> 00:26:48,795
Sure.

620
00:26:48,795 --> 00:26:50,715
I I I think, to back
up a little bit,

621
00:26:50,715 --> 00:26:53,835
I think it's it's it's
largely driven to from my perspective,

622
00:26:53,835 --> 00:26:54,955
kinda on a couple
of data points.

623
00:26:54,955 --> 00:26:57,115
Right? It's the size
of the building.

624
00:26:57,115 --> 00:26:59,515
Like, certainly, a million square
foot office building is a little bit

625
00:26:59,515 --> 00:27:00,315
different than, you know,

626
00:27:00,315 --> 00:27:02,660
a five thousand square
foot retail center.

627
00:27:02,660 --> 00:27:05,780
The asset type slash
the lease type. Right?

628
00:27:05,780 --> 00:27:08,660
Is the owner paying
the bill, or is it,

629
00:27:08,660 --> 00:27:11,380
your multifamily or
tenants paying everything?

630
00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:12,820
And then the last piece really,

631
00:27:12,820 --> 00:27:15,625
which is a newer factor is what's
the regulatory environment?

632
00:27:15,625 --> 00:27:16,025
Right?

633
00:27:16,025 --> 00:27:18,665
Are you located in a building
performance standard where

634
00:27:18,665 --> 00:27:19,625
there's, you know,

635
00:27:19,625 --> 00:27:23,225
an impending fine which can
reach into the seven figures if

636
00:27:23,225 --> 00:27:25,305
you don't hit a certain
performance metric?

637
00:27:25,305 --> 00:27:25,625
Right?

638
00:27:25,625 --> 00:27:27,945
So for a large building,
like, the example,

639
00:27:27,945 --> 00:27:30,985
in a a big office building
in Denver, Colorado.

640
00:27:30,985 --> 00:27:31,745
Right?

641
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,200
The more granular,
the more detail,

642
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,760
all that capital
is really worth it.

643
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,840
Right? So these control
systems, they right?

644
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:41,120
When you have large buildings,

645
00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:43,440
they really operate
like a large computer,

646
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,885
and there's a lot of
data going in there.

647
00:27:45,885 --> 00:27:48,445
So there is technology
today through AI,

648
00:27:48,445 --> 00:27:53,725
through traditional controls, sequence
operations that it is managing.

649
00:27:53,725 --> 00:27:54,125
Right?

650
00:27:54,125 --> 00:27:58,445
So any optimization can
result in a very big impact.

651
00:27:58,445 --> 00:27:58,765
Right?

652
00:27:58,765 --> 00:28:00,990
So I would go down
to the you know,

653
00:28:00,990 --> 00:28:02,830
what time is the
chiller turning on?

654
00:28:02,830 --> 00:28:06,750
What pumps are sequencing on and
off and during what time of day?

655
00:28:06,750 --> 00:28:07,070
Right?

656
00:28:07,070 --> 00:28:11,230
So looking at these details
for a large building and

657
00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:15,605
investing in a sophisticated control
systems will have a payback to it.

658
00:28:15,605 --> 00:28:15,925
Right?

659
00:28:15,925 --> 00:28:19,365
A reasonable one because you're
using a large lot of energy.

660
00:28:19,365 --> 00:28:22,565
It's it's it is directly
impacting, the owner.

661
00:28:22,565 --> 00:28:26,245
So I think those types of investments
make all the sense in the world.

662
00:28:26,245 --> 00:28:30,910
But for a smaller building
where perhaps the tenants are

663
00:28:30,910 --> 00:28:34,670
paying their own utility bills
and it's not located in a

664
00:28:34,670 --> 00:28:36,270
jurisdiction, I think
it's a little bit tougher.

665
00:28:36,270 --> 00:28:36,510
Right?

666
00:28:36,510 --> 00:28:40,110
I think having, you know,
monthly data about, you know,

667
00:28:40,110 --> 00:28:42,590
how much gas and electric the
tenants are using and giving it

668
00:28:42,590 --> 00:28:43,905
to the owner might make sense.

669
00:28:43,905 --> 00:28:47,585
But I think here is kinda where you
play the end of useful life game.

670
00:28:47,585 --> 00:28:47,825
Right?

671
00:28:47,825 --> 00:28:50,185
It's like you're not
really controlling,

672
00:28:50,785 --> 00:28:53,345
what the tenant's doing and
how much energy they're using.

673
00:28:53,345 --> 00:28:55,425
But upon end of useful life,

674
00:28:55,425 --> 00:28:57,585
this is where you can
probably make the most impact.

675
00:28:57,585 --> 00:28:57,825
Right?

676
00:28:57,825 --> 00:29:02,250
As opposed to going for like for like
replacement of a of a split system,

677
00:29:02,250 --> 00:29:04,650
you go more efficient because
in the end of the day,

678
00:29:04,650 --> 00:29:08,170
it's gonna help your
own carbon and energy

679
00:29:08,170 --> 00:29:09,450
usage as well as the tenant.

680
00:29:09,450 --> 00:29:11,930
So that that could be
where the the the line is.

681
00:29:11,930 --> 00:29:13,050
I think you look at the size,

682
00:29:13,050 --> 00:29:15,815
the type of regulate regulatory
environment really dictates

683
00:29:15,815 --> 00:29:17,095
what the strategy be.

684
00:29:17,095 --> 00:29:17,335
Yeah.

685
00:29:17,335 --> 00:29:20,135
So you're saying it's it's
sometimes it isn't even worth

686
00:29:20,135 --> 00:29:23,895
it to, you know, invest
too much in getting every

687
00:29:23,895 --> 00:29:26,055
single super granular
piece of data.

688
00:29:26,055 --> 00:29:28,300
Right? Like, that's
Yeah. What are gonna do?

689
00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:31,020
Your tenant's gonna use the
energy no matter how much you

690
00:29:31,020 --> 00:29:32,540
know about their usage or not.

691
00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:33,620
Right?

692
00:29:33,660 --> 00:29:34,300
Or yeah.

693
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:37,020
Or or or if they use a twenty
four hour a day versus one hour

694
00:29:37,020 --> 00:29:38,860
a day, it just doesn't
make that big of an impact.

695
00:29:38,860 --> 00:29:39,100
Right?

696
00:29:39,100 --> 00:29:42,205
Again, a small building, it just
doesn't impact it that much.

697
00:29:42,205 --> 00:29:42,445
Right?

698
00:29:42,445 --> 00:29:46,845
I think sky size is really
where it makes the most impact.

699
00:29:46,845 --> 00:29:47,565
Yeah. Yeah.

700
00:29:47,565 --> 00:29:49,645
And multitenant buildings,
obviously, right,

701
00:29:49,645 --> 00:29:52,445
because now you're kind
of comparing, you know,

702
00:29:52,445 --> 00:29:54,405
different usages to each other.

703
00:29:54,860 --> 00:29:57,420
Matt, I should hear a
little bit from you,

704
00:29:57,420 --> 00:29:58,940
particularly as
it comes to, like,

705
00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:03,020
the data that you need to
really understand solar, right,

706
00:30:03,020 --> 00:30:04,860
and the impact of solar.

707
00:30:04,860 --> 00:30:07,660
I think a lot of people are
probably considering going

708
00:30:07,660 --> 00:30:10,615
solar and, maybe
don't have, like,

709
00:30:10,615 --> 00:30:13,975
the clear road map of exactly
what they're gonna save when

710
00:30:13,975 --> 00:30:15,255
they're you know, when the peak,

711
00:30:15,255 --> 00:30:17,655
how you can shave your
peak usage and all of that.

712
00:30:17,655 --> 00:30:21,335
So what do you think is kind
of that critical data for every

713
00:30:21,335 --> 00:30:23,135
building owner to understand?

714
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:28,200
Solar generation data is the probably
the most important component.

715
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:32,120
I mean, if a if a sole if if
a solar plant doesn't have

716
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,000
enter energy generation
data associated to it,

717
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,880
did it even produce energy?

718
00:30:37,005 --> 00:30:40,525
That's a big question that we have
to actually answer quite a bit.

719
00:30:40,525 --> 00:30:45,245
When it comes to granularity,
the the devil's in the details.

720
00:30:45,245 --> 00:30:49,645
And as much as we'd love to
just look at a month's worth of

721
00:30:49,645 --> 00:30:52,725
production data or maybe
even a day's worth,

722
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,600
you're not gonna find issues
necessarily with that.

723
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,520
You have to go even further in.

724
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,120
So when it comes to, you
know, on-site generation,

725
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,840
granularity needs to be down to
about five or ten minute intervals

726
00:31:06,315 --> 00:31:10,075
and as many signals as
you can get from a system.

727
00:31:10,075 --> 00:31:11,835
Right? That can be energy.

728
00:31:11,835 --> 00:31:14,875
It can be power
voltage, other alerting,

729
00:31:14,875 --> 00:31:18,755
anything and everything that can
pull with a given hardware on-site.

730
00:31:18,910 --> 00:31:23,750
But, to my kind of my first point
that I wanted to to elaborate on,

731
00:31:23,950 --> 00:31:26,590
this is all contingent on
perfect communications from

732
00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:27,630
devices on-site.

733
00:31:27,630 --> 00:31:30,230
Right? Enter the
Internet of things.

734
00:31:30,430 --> 00:31:32,510
And it's great when it works.

735
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:35,030
But what happens when you
lose that communication?

736
00:31:35,275 --> 00:31:36,795
What kind of
assumptions do you make?

737
00:31:36,795 --> 00:31:39,595
Do you assume that things were
working as intended and you

738
00:31:39,595 --> 00:31:41,835
normalize the data
and go from there?

739
00:31:41,835 --> 00:31:44,555
Or do you assume that nothing
was working as intended and we

740
00:31:44,555 --> 00:31:47,195
have no signals and it actually
means there was no generation

741
00:31:47,195 --> 00:31:49,340
or whatever signal
you're pulling from?

742
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:51,580
Those are things that asset
managers need to think about

743
00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:53,980
and have a contingency plan for,

744
00:31:53,980 --> 00:31:57,100
because those can oftentimes be
the most complicated and time

745
00:31:57,100 --> 00:32:01,740
consuming scenarios,
when faced, with,

746
00:32:01,740 --> 00:32:03,620
that lack of data.

747
00:32:04,045 --> 00:32:07,165
And I I'm thinking back to our
previous conversations, Matt,

748
00:32:07,165 --> 00:32:12,045
about how you know, I assumed
solar panels to be infallible.

749
00:32:12,045 --> 00:32:12,285
Right?

750
00:32:12,285 --> 00:32:16,140
You stick them in the sun, energy
comes out the other end, but, you know,

751
00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:18,940
they especially kind of when
you first install them, right,

752
00:32:18,940 --> 00:32:20,700
there are possible problems.

753
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:24,220
Like, they they tend to have
little blips or or they go down.

754
00:32:24,220 --> 00:32:24,460
Right?

755
00:32:24,460 --> 00:32:26,700
So how can maybe, you know,

756
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:31,155
building owners really best
install them and and keep

757
00:32:31,155 --> 00:32:32,035
them from, you know,

758
00:32:32,035 --> 00:32:35,315
any of these kind of little
little power outages?

759
00:32:35,315 --> 00:32:37,955
Yeah. Set it and
forget it. Right?

760
00:32:37,955 --> 00:32:39,635
Turns out that
was a Great dream.

761
00:32:39,635 --> 00:32:40,835
Some baloney.

762
00:32:40,835 --> 00:32:43,835
But that's why I have
a job, so that's good.

763
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,480
You know, it's all about
expectations, right, and planning.

764
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:47,880
Right?

765
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,840
So somebody somebody builds
the builds the solar,

766
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,120
and then it gets handed off
to somebody who operates it.

767
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,200
That milestone is
very important.

768
00:32:57,395 --> 00:33:00,995
Very important once
you go from, you know,

769
00:33:00,995 --> 00:33:05,235
construction to operation that everything
gets handed off in a clean slate.

770
00:33:05,235 --> 00:33:07,235
You know exactly
what's installed.

771
00:33:07,235 --> 00:33:09,990
You flag any sort
of issues, etcetera.

772
00:33:09,990 --> 00:33:13,750
So asset owners are starting to
realize that investment of, hey.

773
00:33:13,750 --> 00:33:16,150
If we invest a little bit
more time and money at that

774
00:33:16,150 --> 00:33:18,150
milestone and say and, you know,

775
00:33:18,150 --> 00:33:20,710
check everything and make sure
everything's corrected, and if not,

776
00:33:20,710 --> 00:33:23,265
we bring it back to the
installer and they remediate it

777
00:33:23,265 --> 00:33:24,865
typically for free.

778
00:33:24,865 --> 00:33:27,585
That's a lot cheaper
than not doing that,

779
00:33:27,585 --> 00:33:29,505
waiting five years
and realizing, hey.

780
00:33:29,505 --> 00:33:30,945
They forgot x, y, and z,

781
00:33:30,945 --> 00:33:35,865
and now we have issues that
are causing reputable damage.

782
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:37,740
Those those types of
investments people are

783
00:33:37,740 --> 00:33:40,340
realizing that are
very important.

784
00:33:40,380 --> 00:33:43,900
And then also just better
expectations of budgeting.

785
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:45,060
Right?

786
00:33:45,340 --> 00:33:46,700
With any technology,

787
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,540
when you install it and
when things go live,

788
00:33:49,595 --> 00:33:52,555
there's a higher incident rate
of failure in the beginning.

789
00:33:52,555 --> 00:33:54,795
Right? You're ironing
out the kinks.

790
00:33:54,795 --> 00:33:56,555
It's no different with solar.

791
00:33:56,555 --> 00:33:59,035
So just a it's a better
expectation of, hey.

792
00:33:59,035 --> 00:34:00,875
When it when it goes live,

793
00:34:00,875 --> 00:34:03,830
things will break at a higher
incident rate initially and

794
00:34:03,830 --> 00:34:07,590
then cool down a little bit over
time and budgeting accordingly.

795
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:07,990
Yeah.

796
00:34:07,990 --> 00:34:10,070
And and, obviously, not every,

797
00:34:10,070 --> 00:34:12,310
property owner is lucky enough
to have someone like Cass,

798
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:15,510
right, who's, like, an
expert on just a bit.

799
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:19,215
So I I'm sure a lot of
property people kinda think,

800
00:34:19,215 --> 00:34:21,295
it's kind of outside
of my purview.

801
00:34:21,295 --> 00:34:24,655
Like, I'm just gonna hand
it off to the installer,

802
00:34:24,655 --> 00:34:25,855
and they know what
they're doing.

803
00:34:25,855 --> 00:34:26,095
Right?

804
00:34:26,095 --> 00:34:28,895
But you're saying you do have
to to really kind of educate

805
00:34:28,895 --> 00:34:32,330
yourself and and sit on top of this
this process when it's coming on.

806
00:34:32,330 --> 00:34:33,850
Hundred percent. Yeah.

807
00:34:33,850 --> 00:34:37,370
And making sure you have somebody
from the outside looking in.

808
00:34:37,370 --> 00:34:37,610
Right?

809
00:34:37,610 --> 00:34:40,890
You don't want, you know,
the installer checking off,

810
00:34:40,890 --> 00:34:42,730
you know, signing off on
tell you everything's fine.

811
00:34:42,730 --> 00:34:43,370
I'm sure.

812
00:34:43,370 --> 00:34:45,530
Yeah. Of course. Have
somebody else. You know?

813
00:34:45,530 --> 00:34:46,730
It's a it's a little
bit more, you know,

814
00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:48,445
it's a little more investment,
a little bit more time,

815
00:34:48,445 --> 00:34:49,725
but wow.

816
00:34:49,725 --> 00:34:52,605
I mean, so much pain
can be alleviated,

817
00:34:52,605 --> 00:34:55,525
and it's for
everybody's benefit.

818
00:34:55,565 --> 00:34:56,765
Sure.

819
00:34:56,765 --> 00:35:00,165
Yeah. Hold on. I just wanted
to add one more thing.

820
00:35:00,205 --> 00:35:01,300
It's interesting, you know,

821
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:04,260
thinking about what data you need
for better energy management.

822
00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:07,700
So there was a time in
multifamily where, again,

823
00:35:07,700 --> 00:35:09,860
we were just concerned
about the common areas.

824
00:35:09,860 --> 00:35:12,180
Those were our bills, and
the residents, you know,

825
00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:15,220
would pay their own,
different utilities bills.

826
00:35:15,220 --> 00:35:18,635
And I think there is
this growing need to

827
00:35:18,635 --> 00:35:21,595
understand demand per unit.

828
00:35:21,595 --> 00:35:23,435
And I think Tony was
alluding to this.

829
00:35:23,435 --> 00:35:25,675
There are jurisdictions where it's
really hard to back into

830
00:35:25,675 --> 00:35:27,155
that information.

831
00:35:27,515 --> 00:35:28,715
But I think on the market,

832
00:35:28,715 --> 00:35:32,030
I've seen folks coming up with
creative ways to back into it,

833
00:35:32,030 --> 00:35:33,950
whether it's different,
honestly, like,

834
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:38,670
regulatory loopholes or is it through
resident authorization, etcetera.

835
00:35:38,670 --> 00:35:41,230
Because, ultimately,
when we're reporting,

836
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:43,445
to investors or different
frameworks, you know,

837
00:35:43,445 --> 00:35:47,285
whole building consumption is
what we are responsible for.

838
00:35:47,285 --> 00:35:50,885
And, so whether or not we have
line of sight or whether or not we

839
00:35:50,885 --> 00:35:54,085
can control sort of resident
behavior and consumption,

840
00:35:54,085 --> 00:35:55,525
we're still responsible for it.

841
00:35:55,525 --> 00:36:00,870
So I think that's getting that
granular data is becoming a new focus,

842
00:36:00,870 --> 00:36:03,910
getting a better understanding
of what the residents are are

843
00:36:03,910 --> 00:36:05,590
being billed in some way,

844
00:36:05,590 --> 00:36:09,510
especially as there are more
resident protections around billing.

845
00:36:09,510 --> 00:36:09,910
You know?

846
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:13,505
If you are using a third party
provider, whatever it is,

847
00:36:13,505 --> 00:36:16,865
there are certain billing allocation
methods that are in place.

848
00:36:16,865 --> 00:36:20,145
In some areas, there are
caps on what residents can charge.

849
00:36:20,145 --> 00:36:20,945
And and, generally,

850
00:36:20,945 --> 00:36:23,665
if they notice that their
energy bills are going up,

851
00:36:23,665 --> 00:36:24,705
for example, you know,

852
00:36:24,705 --> 00:36:27,890
if they are upset and
don't feel great about it,

853
00:36:27,890 --> 00:36:31,810
the owners become responsible for
that relationship and reaction.

854
00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:35,730
So just wanted to put a fine
point on I I think there's a

855
00:36:35,730 --> 00:36:37,730
growing maybe obsession
is a strong word,

856
00:36:37,730 --> 00:36:40,530
but I think it's an obsession
with what's going on in the

857
00:36:40,530 --> 00:36:43,905
units and and how we can
get better data around that in a

858
00:36:43,905 --> 00:36:47,105
way that doesn't impede privacy
and that is helpful to the

859
00:36:47,105 --> 00:36:48,905
resident experience.

860
00:36:48,945 --> 00:36:50,665
Yeah. Great point.

861
00:36:51,745 --> 00:36:54,465
Love to, talk a little bit
about these insights. Right?

862
00:36:54,465 --> 00:36:54,705
Okay.

863
00:36:54,705 --> 00:36:58,520
So let's let's assume that we're
getting all the data that we need.

864
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,360
You know, it's all kind
of coming in clearly.

865
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,560
You know, what can it tell
us about the building?

866
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,160
And and particularly,
like, you know,

867
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,455
how can it be used to
actually drop energy usage?

868
00:37:09,455 --> 00:37:09,695
Right?

869
00:37:09,695 --> 00:37:10,975
We've already talked
about you know,

870
00:37:10,975 --> 00:37:14,455
a lot of times these are
kinda controlled spaces.

871
00:37:14,655 --> 00:37:15,615
You know?

872
00:37:15,615 --> 00:37:18,095
Cass, I'll stick with you here
to talk about multifamily,

873
00:37:18,095 --> 00:37:21,295
and then I wanna expand it
to some other property types.

874
00:37:21,295 --> 00:37:24,130
But, you know, like, how
do you you know? Okay.

875
00:37:24,130 --> 00:37:26,450
We know that this unit
is using, you know,

876
00:37:26,450 --> 00:37:29,170
way more energy or this
building is using way more

877
00:37:29,170 --> 00:37:30,930
energy than rest
of our portfolio.

878
00:37:30,930 --> 00:37:34,730
How how do you actually go about
bringing that energy usage down?

879
00:37:34,945 --> 00:37:35,345
Yeah.

880
00:37:35,345 --> 00:37:37,625
I mean, you either have,

881
00:37:37,665 --> 00:37:41,585
an integration that you've
selected that can automatically

882
00:37:41,585 --> 00:37:43,425
adjust things for you.

883
00:37:43,425 --> 00:37:45,345
That's sort of
the technological fix.

884
00:37:45,345 --> 00:37:48,945
But, ultimately, it's up to the teams
that are analyzing the information to

885
00:37:48,945 --> 00:37:53,290
choose the most financially
optimized and and least

886
00:37:53,290 --> 00:37:56,090
disruptive pass pathway
forward, you know,

887
00:37:56,090 --> 00:37:57,610
for the asset.

888
00:37:57,610 --> 00:37:59,850
I don't wanna oversimplify
it, but, you know,

889
00:37:59,850 --> 00:38:01,610
we can get into the
the dirt of, like,

890
00:38:01,610 --> 00:38:04,425
how you pick vendors and
how you pick solutions.

891
00:38:04,425 --> 00:38:07,225
And I think every company goes
about that very differently,

892
00:38:07,225 --> 00:38:09,145
but, ultimately,
that's what it takes.

893
00:38:09,145 --> 00:38:09,385
You know?

894
00:38:09,385 --> 00:38:13,385
Assume that you have the
best data possible at a

895
00:38:13,385 --> 00:38:16,105
certain point after you've
done your QAQ saying scrubbing,

896
00:38:16,105 --> 00:38:20,480
etcetera, and then figure out
your strategy for integration,

897
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,560
you know, tackling it,
reducing it over time.

898
00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:27,200
I think for there are
different vendors who

899
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,280
have sort of different
solutions over time.

900
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:29,520
You know?

901
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:30,560
Tony kind of, again,

902
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,205
talked about sort of
the automation feature.

903
00:38:33,205 --> 00:38:35,605
So if you have something
that can kinda detect your

904
00:38:35,605 --> 00:38:37,845
threshold, you set
that as a business.

905
00:38:37,845 --> 00:38:38,725
Maybe it can adjust.

906
00:38:38,725 --> 00:38:41,205
I love to use the
thermostat example,

907
00:38:41,205 --> 00:38:44,885
because there are ones that are
very smart and that can adjust

908
00:38:44,885 --> 00:38:47,005
in certain spaces over time.

909
00:38:47,630 --> 00:38:51,150
But, again, going back to the
residential unit component,

910
00:38:51,150 --> 00:38:53,870
unless you are able to get
those upgrades in ahead of time

911
00:38:53,870 --> 00:38:57,390
and communicate that to
the resident as a feature,

912
00:38:57,390 --> 00:39:00,830
and maybe some make clear
sort of your, you know,

913
00:39:00,830 --> 00:39:03,825
ownership desires
around how they operate,

914
00:39:03,825 --> 00:39:05,025
maybe that thermostat.

915
00:39:05,025 --> 00:39:06,465
You know, leave it
alone. Don't touch it.

916
00:39:06,465 --> 00:39:08,145
Let it be set at
these different times,

917
00:39:08,145 --> 00:39:10,945
which who knows if they're
going to adhere to that.

918
00:39:10,945 --> 00:39:15,430
I think the in unit transition
is a little more complicated.

919
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:17,910
Yeah. Yeah. And, obviously,
there's an opt in aspect of it.

920
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:18,150
Right?

921
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:20,310
Some people are, like, you know,

922
00:39:20,310 --> 00:39:23,990
super sensitive to anybody
messing with, you know,

923
00:39:23,990 --> 00:39:26,230
their status or anything
in in their home.

924
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:27,630
So that makes sense.

925
00:39:27,975 --> 00:39:29,175
Tony, let's maybe, like,

926
00:39:29,175 --> 00:39:31,495
expand this to to talk about
some other property types.

927
00:39:31,495 --> 00:39:35,015
Right? We have, you
know, retail and office.

928
00:39:35,015 --> 00:39:36,935
They still have mostly
contented, you know,

929
00:39:36,935 --> 00:39:38,615
tenant controlled spaces,

930
00:39:38,615 --> 00:39:41,895
but now you're dealing with
maybe corporations that have

931
00:39:41,895 --> 00:39:42,650
sustainability mandates.

932
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:42,890
Right?

933
00:39:42,890 --> 00:39:47,450
They might be a little bit
more willing to work with landlords.

934
00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:50,410
Likewise, I know a lot of these
systems actually do kind of do

935
00:39:50,410 --> 00:39:53,450
reporting and and
work with the the

936
00:39:53,450 --> 00:39:55,690
landlord or with
the tenants as well.

937
00:39:55,690 --> 00:39:59,115
So, you know, how do you think
that maybe the property industry,

938
00:39:59,115 --> 00:40:03,715
property owners can kind
of use data to bring down

939
00:40:03,915 --> 00:40:07,115
the energy usage in places
where it's not as easy as,

940
00:40:07,115 --> 00:40:09,635
you know, turning off a
light when no one's there?

941
00:40:09,750 --> 00:40:10,470
Yeah. Sure.

942
00:40:10,470 --> 00:40:11,550
So

943
00:40:13,270 --> 00:40:16,550
I wanted to find what the
perfect dataset is before I

944
00:40:16,550 --> 00:40:18,110
answer that question.

945
00:40:19,590 --> 00:40:22,230
You know, I I think
when you look at traditionally, like,

946
00:40:22,230 --> 00:40:24,695
age and agent condition
of existing equipment.

947
00:40:24,695 --> 00:40:24,855
Right?

948
00:40:24,855 --> 00:40:26,775
That's everyone's kinda familiar
when you buy a

949
00:40:26,775 --> 00:40:30,135
building, you order a PCA,
and you see age and condition,

950
00:40:30,135 --> 00:40:33,415
and that's generally how
CapEx is being specked.

951
00:40:33,415 --> 00:40:33,655
Right?

952
00:40:33,655 --> 00:40:35,780
It's it's end of useful life.

953
00:40:35,780 --> 00:40:38,740
This system is, you know,
has is is ten years old.

954
00:40:38,740 --> 00:40:41,380
Useful life is twelve, and
we're replacing it in two years.

955
00:40:41,380 --> 00:40:45,140
And and then we kinda layer
in energy information.

956
00:40:45,140 --> 00:40:45,380
Right?

957
00:40:45,380 --> 00:40:46,660
The perfect information
is, you know,

958
00:40:46,660 --> 00:40:49,855
at the unit level
having utility bills.

959
00:40:49,855 --> 00:40:52,575
Right? We know exactly how much
energy this tenant is using.

960
00:40:52,575 --> 00:40:54,655
Right? But then we can
collate in controls too.

961
00:40:54,655 --> 00:40:56,415
We know when the
chiller's turning on.

962
00:40:56,415 --> 00:40:59,055
We know when the tenant is
occupying the space when

963
00:40:59,055 --> 00:41:00,935
they're leaving the space.

964
00:41:01,295 --> 00:41:02,775
We also know

965
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:05,260
carbon performance over time.

966
00:41:05,260 --> 00:41:07,460
Right? Carbon is dynamic.

967
00:41:07,980 --> 00:41:08,380
Right?

968
00:41:08,380 --> 00:41:12,220
So so, you know,
I few months ago,

969
00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:14,300
would say the grid
is decarbonizing.

970
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:16,300
I'm not too sure
about that anymore,

971
00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:20,265
but there is a certain bit of
the grid will decarbonize over

972
00:41:20,265 --> 00:41:24,105
time and perhaps it's getting
cleaner so that if your goal is

973
00:41:24,105 --> 00:41:25,705
to decarbonize,

974
00:41:25,705 --> 00:41:27,865
you need to understand what the
carbon performance is gonna be

975
00:41:27,865 --> 00:41:29,625
of your building
if you do nothing.

976
00:41:29,625 --> 00:41:31,945
And then I also wanna add in
the perfect amount of data.

977
00:41:31,945 --> 00:41:35,330
It's also considering
resilience into this as well.

978
00:41:35,330 --> 00:41:35,650
Right?

979
00:41:35,650 --> 00:41:39,410
I think we we we we when
I just have to bring it in

980
00:41:39,410 --> 00:41:42,290
because efficiency and resilience
sort of go hand in hand.

981
00:41:42,290 --> 00:41:42,530
Right?

982
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:43,730
When you're looking at the PCA,

983
00:41:43,730 --> 00:41:47,485
it's not just age and condition is
if you do have an adverse event.

984
00:41:47,485 --> 00:41:47,725
Right?

985
00:41:47,725 --> 00:41:51,405
Acute climate event like a
wildfire or hurricane or or or

986
00:41:51,405 --> 00:41:55,165
or a flood, how is
this building going to fare?

987
00:41:55,165 --> 00:41:55,405
Right?

988
00:41:55,405 --> 00:41:59,430
And it's we should look at all
these items when considering

989
00:41:59,430 --> 00:42:02,870
CapEx plan. Right? So you take
that office building. Right?

990
00:42:02,870 --> 00:42:04,550
So we wanna look at, hey.

991
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:06,470
When is the chiller
end of useful life?

992
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:07,990
I can, at this point
in time, decide,

993
00:42:07,990 --> 00:42:10,790
do we stay with let me take
a gas boiler, for example.

994
00:42:10,790 --> 00:42:11,030
Right?

995
00:42:11,030 --> 00:42:14,045
Do we go more efficient with
gas, or do we fuel switch?

996
00:42:14,045 --> 00:42:16,525
Right? That's an end of
useful life item. Right?

997
00:42:16,525 --> 00:42:18,925
If we look at the the carbon
performance of a time,

998
00:42:18,925 --> 00:42:19,725
it is a penalty.

999
00:42:19,725 --> 00:42:22,525
Well, I'm gonna incur a penalty.

1000
00:42:22,525 --> 00:42:25,485
So I might wanna
advance that capital,

1001
00:42:25,485 --> 00:42:29,180
improvement to fuel switch
from gas to electric.

1002
00:42:29,180 --> 00:42:32,060
But at that very same
time, I'm looking at, hey.

1003
00:42:32,060 --> 00:42:34,460
I'm more prone to
flooding. Right?

1004
00:42:34,460 --> 00:42:37,820
The last big hurricane, I had
a little bit of water damage.

1005
00:42:37,820 --> 00:42:40,140
My next one is
predicted to be higher,

1006
00:42:40,140 --> 00:42:43,435
so I might wanna relocate my
boiler from the ground floor to

1007
00:42:43,435 --> 00:42:44,955
the first floor to the rooftop.

1008
00:42:44,955 --> 00:42:47,795
So these are all the
various considerations

1009
00:42:47,835 --> 00:42:51,675
that we have to look at when
we're doing CapEx planning.

1010
00:42:51,675 --> 00:42:52,955
Energy is a focus,

1011
00:42:52,955 --> 00:42:54,715
but we're looking at
traditional due diligence.

1012
00:42:54,715 --> 00:42:56,650
We're looking at which
age and condition,

1013
00:42:56,650 --> 00:43:00,490
but you also gotta factor in
resilience too because at that

1014
00:43:00,490 --> 00:43:02,410
point in time, that makes
all the sense of the world.

1015
00:43:02,410 --> 00:43:05,210
You hate to do a big old
capital improvement project and

1016
00:43:05,210 --> 00:43:08,010
miss one of the most glaring
risks that that building owners

1017
00:43:08,010 --> 00:43:11,330
have, which is, some of these
climate events that can happen.

1018
00:43:11,365 --> 00:43:14,405
So, you know, again,
office and and and retail,

1019
00:43:14,405 --> 00:43:17,045
it's it's looking at
all these data points.

1020
00:43:17,045 --> 00:43:17,285
Right?

1021
00:43:17,285 --> 00:43:21,365
It's it's what impacts this
particular asset the most

1022
00:43:21,365 --> 00:43:24,325
and looking at all these various
factors and and analyzing it.

1023
00:43:24,325 --> 00:43:24,565
Right?

1024
00:43:24,565 --> 00:43:27,550
I think it's so data
tells you everything.

1025
00:43:27,990 --> 00:43:31,030
And it's and I I my my my
personal concern is there's

1026
00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:32,310
just too much data.

1027
00:43:32,310 --> 00:43:32,630
Right?

1028
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:36,710
Cass, I mean, the amount of subject
matters you had to become proficient at

1029
00:43:36,710 --> 00:43:39,195
in the past ten years
probably tripled.

1030
00:43:39,195 --> 00:43:39,675
Right.

1031
00:43:39,675 --> 00:43:42,155
I think that's part of the
concern is how do you manage

1032
00:43:42,155 --> 00:43:43,795
all this information?

1033
00:43:44,475 --> 00:43:44,795
Yeah.

1034
00:43:44,795 --> 00:43:48,155
I mean, there's a a lot coming
in and and a lot to consider.

1035
00:43:48,155 --> 00:43:51,595
I mean, do you think the building
owners are maybe getting better

1036
00:43:51,595 --> 00:43:53,515
at understanding
the the trade offs?

1037
00:43:53,515 --> 00:43:57,560
Right? I think the the past
was much like you said.

1038
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,880
If it's when it breaks,
we'll figure it out. Right?

1039
00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,400
Once it breaks, we'll we'll but now I
think that we're starting to see, you know,

1040
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,320
particularly if you have
sustainability mandates or

1041
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,120
your, you know, buildings in
a place where it they have to.

1042
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:08,505
Right?

1043
00:44:08,505 --> 00:44:10,025
Well, maybe this
pizza, they're broken,

1044
00:44:10,025 --> 00:44:11,065
but it's just starting to like,

1045
00:44:11,065 --> 00:44:12,345
the efficiency is
starting to drop,

1046
00:44:12,345 --> 00:44:15,945
or we could significantly boost
our efficiency by replacing

1047
00:44:15,945 --> 00:44:19,225
this, you know, even though
it isn't necessarily broken.

1048
00:44:19,225 --> 00:44:21,705
Do you think owners are getting
a little bit better about kind

1049
00:44:21,705 --> 00:44:23,345
of weighing those?

1050
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:26,270
I I I think if

1051
00:44:27,510 --> 00:44:30,230
from my perspective, it's
it's institutional capital.

1052
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:30,550
Right?

1053
00:44:30,550 --> 00:44:32,870
If you're raising it from punch
and funds and life insurance

1054
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:35,830
companies, there are
kind of broader goals.

1055
00:44:35,830 --> 00:44:39,695
I think those owners
are very sophisticated.

1056
00:44:39,815 --> 00:44:43,655
I think when you're located
in a jurisdiction where

1057
00:44:43,655 --> 00:44:47,495
there's, energy efficiency
or carbon force of clients,

1058
00:44:47,495 --> 00:44:50,335
they have become sophisticated.

1059
00:44:50,455 --> 00:44:54,690
I think the rise in
property insurance

1060
00:44:54,690 --> 00:44:57,890
costs and I and and and and
the inability to get property

1061
00:44:57,890 --> 00:44:59,410
insurance, some instances,

1062
00:44:59,410 --> 00:45:01,170
are making owners
more sophisticated.

1063
00:45:01,170 --> 00:45:03,970
So I think it just kinda varies.

1064
00:45:03,970 --> 00:45:06,955
It it just there are extrinsic
factors that make people more

1065
00:45:06,955 --> 00:45:09,515
sophisticated because real
estate people are, in general,

1066
00:45:09,515 --> 00:45:13,555
smart, and they want to they're
very bottom line driven.

1067
00:45:14,075 --> 00:45:16,635
But if there's no ins
there's no reason, incentive,

1068
00:45:16,635 --> 00:45:17,675
or or requirement,

1069
00:45:17,675 --> 00:45:20,570
it's it's a little bit of
passive lease and resistance.

1070
00:45:20,570 --> 00:45:22,210
Yeah. Absolutely.

1071
00:45:22,330 --> 00:45:22,810
Alright, man.

1072
00:45:22,810 --> 00:45:25,770
I wanna bring you in here just
to hear what you have to say

1073
00:45:25,770 --> 00:45:29,850
about, you know, kind of using
this data to to understand

1074
00:45:29,850 --> 00:45:33,050
how to, you know,
lower energy bills.

1075
00:45:33,050 --> 00:45:34,650
Obviously, you know, you're

1076
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:38,555
looking at things from a renewable
standpoint, but, you know,

1077
00:45:38,555 --> 00:45:41,915
I'm sure that a lot of people
maybe are pushing back on,

1078
00:45:41,915 --> 00:45:43,115
you know, do we
need that right now?

1079
00:45:43,115 --> 00:45:45,595
Maybe if we wait a little
bit, these you know,

1080
00:45:45,595 --> 00:45:47,275
a lot of these incentives
might come back.

1081
00:45:47,275 --> 00:45:49,680
I guess it'd probably be three
years at this point until we

1082
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:50,880
get another administration.

1083
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:54,080
But, you know, what what is
the kind of way that people,

1084
00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,440
building owners, and managers
are able to use data to

1085
00:45:57,440 --> 00:45:59,920
understand where
their, you know,

1086
00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:03,440
on-site generation is now and
and maybe where it could be

1087
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,325
with with some investment.

1088
00:46:05,525 --> 00:46:06,845
Yeah.

1089
00:46:06,885 --> 00:46:10,645
Optimization is all
about dollars. Right?

1090
00:46:10,645 --> 00:46:11,645
It's

1091
00:46:12,245 --> 00:46:15,525
for how many how how much
does it for how many kilowatt hours

1092
00:46:15,525 --> 00:46:18,405
that we can increase
out of a system,

1093
00:46:18,405 --> 00:46:22,170
how many dollars will
it cost to do that?

1094
00:46:22,210 --> 00:46:24,530
And to understand that question,

1095
00:46:24,530 --> 00:46:27,170
it really all comes
down to the why.

1096
00:46:27,170 --> 00:46:27,570
Right?

1097
00:46:27,570 --> 00:46:29,970
If a if a system is you know,

1098
00:46:29,970 --> 00:46:33,265
on-site generation is not
meeting the efficiency or

1099
00:46:33,265 --> 00:46:35,425
output that it's intended to,

1100
00:46:35,425 --> 00:46:37,905
you have to answer
the question, why?

1101
00:46:37,905 --> 00:46:41,905
You know, if a if a plan is at fifty
percent generation and it's due

1102
00:46:41,905 --> 00:46:45,665
to either, you know,
widespread failure of

1103
00:46:45,665 --> 00:46:50,680
equipment versus soiling
versus snow coverage,

1104
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,320
the cost to increase
the performance due to those

1105
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,920
reasons are vastly different,
completely different.

1106
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,655
Some some might not even require
you to do anything at all.

1107
00:46:59,655 --> 00:47:03,815
And so, you know, understanding
the payback period for for for

1108
00:47:03,815 --> 00:47:06,455
those types of remediation pass
are very important because,

1109
00:47:06,455 --> 00:47:09,255
ultimately, it comes
down to dollars.

1110
00:47:09,255 --> 00:47:11,815
And so, you know,
to to answer the

1111
00:47:11,815 --> 00:47:14,215
question of why, it
goes back to data too.

1112
00:47:14,215 --> 00:47:14,455
Right?

1113
00:47:14,455 --> 00:47:17,480
Having the right dataset and
being able to analyze it,

1114
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:18,680
look at trends, and say, hey.

1115
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:22,120
This this is why this
asset is underperforming,

1116
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:23,960
and this is what we're
gonna do about it.

1117
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,880
So, you know, we're seeing that,

1118
00:47:27,445 --> 00:47:31,445
you know, if if if if it
there can be a clear articulation of

1119
00:47:31,445 --> 00:47:33,365
a of a of a payback period,

1120
00:47:33,365 --> 00:47:37,565
folks are making that
investment in in remediation.

1121
00:47:37,605 --> 00:47:41,205
How good are, you know, some of
these models at understanding,

1122
00:47:41,205 --> 00:47:42,920
like, the sun, for example?

1123
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,160
Right? How many cloudy days?

1124
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,280
How much sun at what
exposure you're getting?

1125
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:50,040
Are they are they
pretty accurate?

1126
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,520
Can can the property industry
kind of rely on those?

1127
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:54,680
Absolutely. Yeah.

1128
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:55,840
We actually

1129
00:47:57,145 --> 00:47:59,305
you know, for for very
large solar plants,

1130
00:47:59,305 --> 00:48:01,865
they usually use on-site
instruments to to measure the

1131
00:48:01,865 --> 00:48:04,745
irradiance and wind
speed and other factors.

1132
00:48:04,745 --> 00:48:07,385
We actually use satellite
irradiance data to analyze our

1133
00:48:07,385 --> 00:48:09,625
fleets, and we actually
find that it's, you know,

1134
00:48:09,625 --> 00:48:12,180
it's actually more
efficient, cheaper.

1135
00:48:12,180 --> 00:48:13,940
You don't have to
maintain anything,

1136
00:48:13,940 --> 00:48:15,380
and it's extremely accurate.

1137
00:48:15,380 --> 00:48:18,660
And so you're able to
see down to, you know,

1138
00:48:18,660 --> 00:48:22,660
kind of the site level what the
expected irradiance is for a

1139
00:48:22,660 --> 00:48:25,620
given project, and that
helps you answer why.

1140
00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:25,940
Right?

1141
00:48:25,940 --> 00:48:28,885
If a site's not generating as
much as you anticipated it,

1142
00:48:28,885 --> 00:48:32,405
but there wasn't much sun
that day, that could be why,

1143
00:48:32,405 --> 00:48:34,405
comparatively to a day
where there's a lot of sun.

1144
00:48:34,405 --> 00:48:35,605
So, yeah, that's,

1145
00:48:35,605 --> 00:48:39,005
those are those are
extremely important signals.

1146
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,680
And with advancements
in recent years,

1147
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,200
we can actually
get them remotely,

1148
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:44,560
which is a lot more efficient.

1149
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,040
That's cool.

1150
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,000
Well, let's talk
about upgrades. Right?

1151
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:52,000
I mean, there is this
idea of impactfulness.

1152
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:52,400
Right?

1153
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,805
There's the cost, the benefit,

1154
00:48:54,805 --> 00:48:55,845
and then the impactfulness,

1155
00:48:55,845 --> 00:48:57,685
I think that when you
bring that and you're starting to

1156
00:48:57,685 --> 00:48:59,765
look at, you know,
your sustainability,

1157
00:48:59,765 --> 00:49:01,445
your greenhouse gases, right,

1158
00:49:01,445 --> 00:49:05,685
all of those things that maybe aren't
just the top and the bottom lines.

1159
00:49:05,685 --> 00:49:09,085
You know, what are some of
the best ways to determine

1160
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,960
what are the upgrades that
are really going to impact the

1161
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,080
property the most?

1162
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:17,720
Cass, we'll start with
you on this one again.

1163
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:18,160
Yeah.

1164
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:20,200
I think understanding,

1165
00:49:21,155 --> 00:49:22,995
you know, your overall I I mean,

1166
00:49:22,995 --> 00:49:26,115
we're in the midst of our
strategy right now where we're

1167
00:49:26,115 --> 00:49:28,275
aiming towards, like,
transition planning.

1168
00:49:28,275 --> 00:49:32,715
And so as that plan is
really put together,

1169
00:49:32,995 --> 00:49:36,220
what we consider to be
impactful will be, you know,

1170
00:49:36,220 --> 00:49:38,540
what are the costs that are
high that we know we can drive

1171
00:49:38,540 --> 00:49:42,540
down, what is actually going
to drive down emissions, etcetera,

1172
00:49:42,540 --> 00:49:47,100
what's gonna translate to the
highest valuation if we decide

1173
00:49:47,100 --> 00:49:50,060
to sell an asset,
and, ultimately,

1174
00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:53,645
what gets us closer to the
returns profile that we've,

1175
00:49:53,645 --> 00:49:55,165
you know, promised investors.

1176
00:49:55,165 --> 00:49:58,165
So those are some of the
things that we think about.

1177
00:49:59,085 --> 00:50:00,765
But I think, you know,

1178
00:50:00,765 --> 00:50:03,920
everything at this
point is around, okay,

1179
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:06,080
how can we be predictive?

1180
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,760
So we think being predictive
is going to be impactful,

1181
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,680
whether it's around,
you know, energy usage,

1182
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,000
whether it's around
water conservation.

1183
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,560
You know, that's why sensor
technology exists, etcetera.

1184
00:50:20,645 --> 00:50:24,165
Doing those things helps
us prevent what could be

1185
00:50:24,165 --> 00:50:25,205
catastrophic,

1186
00:50:25,205 --> 00:50:28,405
whether there's variability
in energy consumption with

1187
00:50:28,405 --> 00:50:31,605
changing pricing or whether
there's a leak that we didn't

1188
00:50:31,605 --> 00:50:34,005
catch in time, and now this
is something that, you know,

1189
00:50:34,005 --> 00:50:35,805
we're going to have to pay for.

1190
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:39,120
So I think from a
sustainability standpoint,

1191
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,400
from a utility standpoint,
we think of energy, water,

1192
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:43,520
waste emissions,

1193
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:46,160
and those are the categories
that we need to tackle until

1194
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,760
they're completely controlled.

1195
00:50:50,295 --> 00:50:53,855
And, you know, I think
in other areas where,

1196
00:50:54,055 --> 00:50:56,695
you know, it's gray, not
everything's black and white,

1197
00:50:56,695 --> 00:50:58,135
like, where we
might think, okay.

1198
00:50:58,135 --> 00:50:59,335
This could be impactful,

1199
00:50:59,335 --> 00:51:01,895
but we don't understand if it's
truly going to deliver during

1200
00:51:01,895 --> 00:51:03,015
the return period,

1201
00:51:03,015 --> 00:51:06,010
or maybe we're not sure
about the hold of this asset,

1202
00:51:06,010 --> 00:51:07,050
whatever it might be,

1203
00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:09,850
we think about scenario
analysis and piloting.

1204
00:51:09,850 --> 00:51:10,570
Right?

1205
00:51:10,570 --> 00:51:14,250
Seeing within a short period
of time what is financially

1206
00:51:14,250 --> 00:51:15,290
optimizing something.

1207
00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:17,690
And if it's not working, we
need to pull it off quickly,

1208
00:51:17,690 --> 00:51:20,130
again, in any of
those categories.

1209
00:51:20,395 --> 00:51:24,235
So that's the the lens that
we have in terms of thinking

1210
00:51:24,235 --> 00:51:26,395
through most impactful upgrades.

1211
00:51:26,395 --> 00:51:29,515
But, again, it's thinking
through energy, water, waste,

1212
00:51:29,515 --> 00:51:31,835
emissions, and then, you know,

1213
00:51:31,835 --> 00:51:34,555
what ultimately fits with
what we can do at the asset.

1214
00:51:34,555 --> 00:51:38,610
There's a lot to consider from just
a community management perspective.

1215
00:51:38,610 --> 00:51:39,010
Sure.

1216
00:51:39,010 --> 00:51:40,530
So yeah.

1217
00:51:40,530 --> 00:51:42,770
We we got a question here,
and you kind of answered it,

1218
00:51:42,770 --> 00:51:46,050
but I'll just maybe bring it
out because it kind of puts

1219
00:51:46,050 --> 00:51:46,850
things in a different light.

1220
00:51:46,850 --> 00:51:49,970
It's like, ROI models or frameworks
do you find the most effective for

1221
00:51:49,970 --> 00:51:53,525
quantifying the value
of, say, AI or AIoT,

1222
00:51:53,525 --> 00:51:54,565
but really any investment.

1223
00:51:54,565 --> 00:51:54,805
Right?

1224
00:51:54,805 --> 00:51:59,845
Any investment, like, where does
the sustainability aspect fit?

1225
00:51:59,845 --> 00:52:03,605
Where does the kind of,
you know, future proofing fits?

1226
00:52:03,605 --> 00:52:06,800
Is the model just how much
we're gonna spend and how much

1227
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:07,600
we're gonna save?

1228
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,520
Like or or do you kind of,

1229
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,280
bring in all of these
other factors as well?

1230
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:12,720
Yeah.

1231
00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,920
I think there's I mean, we
lead with the, you know,

1232
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:17,560
quantitative

1233
00:52:18,335 --> 00:52:19,295
thinking through.

1234
00:52:19,295 --> 00:52:23,615
And then you think about the I don't
wanna call them normal return periods.

1235
00:52:23,615 --> 00:52:25,935
I think that has changed
a lot even for, like,

1236
00:52:25,935 --> 00:52:30,895
solar modeling Where we thought it
could be within three or four years.

1237
00:52:30,895 --> 00:52:34,000
There are some scenarios where they
might model it a little further out.

1238
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,920
So, but there's something customary
about each type of project.

1239
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,640
You know, when you do, like,
an LED retrofit, for example,

1240
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:45,215
you expect some immediate change in
your consumption and cost profile.

1241
00:52:45,215 --> 00:52:48,495
So I think each one of those
categories has their own

1242
00:52:48,495 --> 00:52:50,655
methodology and expectation.

1243
00:52:50,655 --> 00:52:53,215
There are others that are
a little more qualitative,

1244
00:52:53,215 --> 00:52:55,295
and that's specifically
around climate.

1245
00:52:55,295 --> 00:52:57,780
So qualitative in the
sense that, you know,

1246
00:52:57,780 --> 00:53:01,700
you have to do some level of
a sophisticated assessment.

1247
00:53:01,700 --> 00:53:05,540
You know that you need to be
able to speak to high level

1248
00:53:05,540 --> 00:53:09,060
quantification of the financial
risk as tied to whatever

1249
00:53:09,060 --> 00:53:11,540
climate risk that you've
identified and whether or not

1250
00:53:11,540 --> 00:53:12,820
it's in orange or red.

1251
00:53:12,820 --> 00:53:13,275
Right?

1252
00:53:13,275 --> 00:53:15,755
And then you dial
that in, for example,

1253
00:53:15,755 --> 00:53:18,955
in multifamily with your
operations team to say,

1254
00:53:18,955 --> 00:53:21,835
this is how much of the risk
we've considered in insurance.

1255
00:53:21,835 --> 00:53:24,155
This is how much of
it we've considered,

1256
00:53:24,155 --> 00:53:26,155
via what we can
do operationally,

1257
00:53:26,155 --> 00:53:28,430
whether it's through
early warning,

1258
00:53:28,430 --> 00:53:32,190
wrapping pipes that we don't
want to burst, etcetera,

1259
00:53:32,190 --> 00:53:34,510
and that gets very
granular per asset.

1260
00:53:34,510 --> 00:53:36,110
So I think it's a mix of both,

1261
00:53:36,110 --> 00:53:38,830
but I really do think there
are some of these projects and

1262
00:53:38,830 --> 00:53:42,785
categories that have their own
expected timeline even with the

1263
00:53:42,785 --> 00:53:45,505
shifting market
and and incentives.

1264
00:53:45,505 --> 00:53:48,145
And then it's up to your
individualized business to

1265
00:53:48,145 --> 00:53:51,985
determine, like, what is
your, your appetite for that.

1266
00:53:51,985 --> 00:53:52,305
Right?

1267
00:53:52,305 --> 00:53:56,220
If a seven year payback on
a solar model doesn't work for

1268
00:53:56,220 --> 00:53:58,540
you because by then you
expect to sell the asset,

1269
00:53:58,540 --> 00:54:02,380
then you gotta think about
something else in your strategy.

1270
00:54:02,380 --> 00:54:03,100
So Yeah.

1271
00:54:03,100 --> 00:54:04,620
I hear that over and over
again that, you know,

1272
00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:07,100
some these upgrades only make sense
if you're a a long term

1273
00:54:07,100 --> 00:54:09,085
hold kind of kind of an owner.

1274
00:54:09,085 --> 00:54:09,325
Right?

1275
00:54:09,325 --> 00:54:12,765
Because then you're pushing out
this modeling way longer and a

1276
00:54:12,765 --> 00:54:14,685
lot more things, I
think, makes sense.

1277
00:54:14,685 --> 00:54:15,325
Sure.

1278
00:54:15,325 --> 00:54:17,005
Tony, I'm interested
to hear from you.

1279
00:54:17,005 --> 00:54:20,205
Obviously, you guys deal with,
again, the office, the retail,

1280
00:54:20,205 --> 00:54:22,285
all of these other
asset classes.

1281
00:54:22,285 --> 00:54:22,605
Right?

1282
00:54:22,605 --> 00:54:23,740
So, know,

1283
00:54:23,740 --> 00:54:28,060
what's the kind of the the way to the
best way do you think to model this?

1284
00:54:28,060 --> 00:54:31,020
Obviously, you you guys just present
to the information a lot of times,

1285
00:54:31,020 --> 00:54:33,340
but I'm sure you see,
the feedback, right,

1286
00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:35,260
when you're dealing
with your clients.

1287
00:54:35,260 --> 00:54:39,460
Yeah. Obviously, simple
payback is is is very common.

1288
00:54:39,725 --> 00:54:43,645
Another one that's kinda common too
is is looking at the energy

1289
00:54:43,645 --> 00:54:46,845
savings and maintenance savings
incurred by certain capital

1290
00:54:46,845 --> 00:54:49,805
investments and then
capping that savings.

1291
00:54:49,805 --> 00:54:52,045
Right? And then looking at that
multiple of that investment.

1292
00:54:52,045 --> 00:54:53,805
So that's another
metric that, you know,

1293
00:54:53,805 --> 00:54:55,165
a lot of these things would two, three

1294
00:54:55,165 --> 00:54:58,590
time multiples over what the
initial investment is.

1295
00:54:58,590 --> 00:54:58,750
Right?

1296
00:54:58,750 --> 00:55:02,750
So even people that have
short term holds, right,

1297
00:55:02,750 --> 00:55:04,110
if they can prove that, hey.

1298
00:55:04,110 --> 00:55:06,845
You're gonna appreciate
lower operating cost,

1299
00:55:06,845 --> 00:55:08,845
lower energy costs.

1300
00:55:08,845 --> 00:55:12,725
That's a value that you can
sell to the, to the buyer.

1301
00:55:13,245 --> 00:55:16,485
So that that's something
that we look at quite often.

1302
00:55:16,525 --> 00:55:20,125
I say again, I I don't wanna beat a
dead horse here, but, you know, again,

1303
00:55:20,125 --> 00:55:23,405
jurisdictions where there
are penalties for carbon

1304
00:55:23,405 --> 00:55:26,860
performance and energy performance,
you gotta integrate that.

1305
00:55:26,860 --> 00:55:28,940
It's not just in your
whole period. Right?

1306
00:55:28,940 --> 00:55:32,220
So what you really gotta look
at is in your disposition,

1307
00:55:32,220 --> 00:55:35,580
is the next guy that's buying
your building is is that person

1308
00:55:35,580 --> 00:55:38,575
going to experience a
substantial penalty?

1309
00:55:38,575 --> 00:55:40,975
Because if they are, they're
gonna negotiate for that.

1310
00:55:40,975 --> 00:55:44,095
So that's something you need
to capital plan for during your

1311
00:55:44,095 --> 00:55:46,495
whole period just
because, you know,

1312
00:55:46,495 --> 00:55:48,575
that that potential buyer
is gonna know about it.

1313
00:55:48,575 --> 00:55:50,255
And there's gonna be
some transparency there,

1314
00:55:50,255 --> 00:55:54,200
and then and and there's gonna
be there there there will be

1315
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:55,320
negotiations happening.

1316
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,400
So it's not just your whole
period. It's the next.

1317
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,960
And and then talking a little
bit more about, you know,

1318
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:01,600
resilience

1319
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:03,240
and climate hazard.

1320
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:06,545
Think that that's just, you
know, a lot of properties.

1321
00:56:06,545 --> 00:56:10,705
Again, it's it's it's the the the
the yellow and it's the orange and

1322
00:56:10,705 --> 00:56:11,425
the and the red.

1323
00:56:11,425 --> 00:56:11,665
Right?

1324
00:56:11,665 --> 00:56:13,985
If you have high acute
risk, medium acute risk,

1325
00:56:13,985 --> 00:56:18,145
it it pays to look to see
if some best practices are

1326
00:56:18,145 --> 00:56:19,585
there depending on the hazards.

1327
00:56:19,585 --> 00:56:19,825
Right?

1328
00:56:19,825 --> 00:56:23,120
Cass mentioned, you
know, pipe wrapping.

1329
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,320
That makes all the
sense in the world.

1330
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,240
Freeze detection.

1331
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,160
You know, the the just,
you know, wildfire.

1332
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,360
Just just, you know, tree
landscape management,

1333
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:34,640
removing wood chips.

1334
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:34,800
Right?

1335
00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,995
Those are very cost effective
ways to reduce significantly

1336
00:56:38,995 --> 00:56:41,875
your hazard risks for
particular climate hazards.

1337
00:56:41,875 --> 00:56:44,595
And, again, I think what we'll
see in the future a little bit is

1338
00:56:44,595 --> 00:56:46,675
insurance companies are
gonna ask for more data.

1339
00:56:46,675 --> 00:56:46,995
Right?

1340
00:56:46,995 --> 00:56:50,720
I think there are it's just the the if
you look at it, like, five years ago,

1341
00:56:50,720 --> 00:56:53,920
no one really cared about
what all the data around the

1342
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:56,400
physical properties are
for climate hazards.

1343
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:56,640
Right?

1344
00:56:56,640 --> 00:56:57,680
You just got property insurance.

1345
00:56:57,680 --> 00:56:59,600
You did the address,
the size, and the type.

1346
00:56:59,600 --> 00:56:59,840
Right.

1347
00:56:59,840 --> 00:57:00,960
You got a quote.

1348
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:04,205
But today, it's become a lot more
sophisticated with a lot more

1349
00:57:04,205 --> 00:57:07,165
folks asking for cope data,
which is construction,

1350
00:57:07,165 --> 00:57:11,125
occupancy, protection,
exposure data to underwrite

1351
00:57:11,165 --> 00:57:12,925
physical risk insurance.

1352
00:57:12,925 --> 00:57:15,165
Right? And with good data,
you will have good rates.

1353
00:57:15,165 --> 00:57:16,445
And then with improvements,

1354
00:57:16,445 --> 00:57:19,290
you can further improve
your rates or just or,

1355
00:57:19,290 --> 00:57:21,130
matter of fact, just
get coverage in general.

1356
00:57:21,130 --> 00:57:25,250
So I think that data
just becomes a a a a

1357
00:57:25,690 --> 00:57:28,970
it's it's just things you just
gotta do to even get insurance

1358
00:57:28,970 --> 00:57:30,290
from that perspective.

1359
00:57:30,355 --> 00:57:30,755
Yeah.

1360
00:57:30,755 --> 00:57:34,435
Again, I think that's a a great,
kind of point to end on, right,

1361
00:57:34,435 --> 00:57:37,635
is that we talked a lot for a long
time about this kind of green premium.

1362
00:57:37,635 --> 00:57:37,875
Right?

1363
00:57:37,875 --> 00:57:40,275
If you make a very
sustainable building,

1364
00:57:40,275 --> 00:57:41,235
it should be worth more.

1365
00:57:41,235 --> 00:57:41,475
Right?

1366
00:57:41,475 --> 00:57:44,835
Your kind of your your terminal
value when you sell the

1367
00:57:44,835 --> 00:57:47,180
building should go up.

1368
00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:49,060
I think that we have
seen that some places.

1369
00:57:49,060 --> 00:57:52,180
I don't know if it's one hundred
percent showing up everywhere,

1370
00:57:52,180 --> 00:57:54,340
but I think that we what we've
already seen is that, you know,

1371
00:57:54,340 --> 00:57:55,940
the other side of that,
which is we call, like,

1372
00:57:55,940 --> 00:57:56,980
the brown discount.

1373
00:57:56,980 --> 00:57:57,540
Right?

1374
00:57:57,540 --> 00:58:00,565
Particularly in a place like you're
talking about that has, you know,

1375
00:58:00,565 --> 00:58:04,565
fines that are going to start
at some point for where you are,

1376
00:58:04,565 --> 00:58:07,285
I think we're already starting
to see those buildings start to

1377
00:58:07,285 --> 00:58:08,485
sell for for less.

1378
00:58:08,485 --> 00:58:08,805
Right?

1379
00:58:08,805 --> 00:58:11,845
Now you know as an as a
buyer, you're gonna go in,

1380
00:58:11,845 --> 00:58:14,645
particularly when you use, you
know, company like Partner,

1381
00:58:14,645 --> 00:58:17,750
and they tell you all the things
that is wrong with the building.

1382
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:19,990
You you know there's gonna be
a big expense coming in. Right?

1383
00:58:19,990 --> 00:58:24,230
And so you expect at least that
much of a haircut off off of

1384
00:58:24,230 --> 00:58:26,950
the price, and I think we're
starting to see that a lot more.

1385
00:58:26,950 --> 00:58:28,710
And, you know, hopefully,

1386
00:58:28,710 --> 00:58:32,205
that will push sustainability
to this point where now you are

1387
00:58:32,205 --> 00:58:34,485
getting this kind
of green premium.

1388
00:58:34,605 --> 00:58:36,125
But I know that that, certainly,

1389
00:58:36,125 --> 00:58:40,125
those those fines can can add
up and and can scare buyers off.

1390
00:58:40,125 --> 00:58:40,365
Right?

1391
00:58:40,365 --> 00:58:43,565
I certainly would think twice
about buying a building where I do.

1392
00:58:43,565 --> 00:58:44,045
You know?

1393
00:58:44,045 --> 00:58:47,350
And especially with the the
changing regulatory environment

1394
00:58:47,350 --> 00:58:48,630
that we're in right now, right,

1395
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:50,390
the fast forward a couple years,

1396
00:58:50,390 --> 00:58:52,230
and it it the fines
could be a lot worse,

1397
00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:53,990
and and things could
could be worse.

1398
00:58:53,990 --> 00:58:56,950
So I just wanna thank
all of you for joining.

1399
00:58:56,950 --> 00:59:00,205
I wanna remind everyone
watching that this will be

1400
00:59:00,205 --> 00:59:02,125
available on demand.

1401
00:59:02,125 --> 00:59:04,125
If you use the same link
to use to log in to this,

1402
00:59:04,125 --> 00:59:05,485
you can watch it later,

1403
00:59:05,485 --> 00:59:07,565
share it with your
friends and family.

1404
00:59:07,565 --> 00:59:10,285
Also, if any of you
would like to be

1405
00:59:10,285 --> 00:59:13,660
put in contact with any
of the panelists here,

1406
00:59:13,660 --> 00:59:15,900
please send me an email,
and I can facilitate that.

1407
00:59:15,900 --> 00:59:17,740
It's Franco at Propmodo dot com,

1408
00:59:17,740 --> 00:59:20,940
f r a n c o at Propmodo dot com.

1409
00:59:20,940 --> 00:59:24,300
Cass, Matt, Tony, thanks
for the great conversation.

1410
00:59:24,300 --> 00:59:25,980
Thank you so much.

1411
00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:27,140
Thank you.